Roba, this is just unbelievable. I don’t know what is more so…that Israel is doing it or so many Americans think it’s ‘ok’. We’ve been talking to many Americans this summer about it, presenting a different perspective, recommending jp as a news source. God have mercy.

Jews around the world are best at what they do.

Look at this website:
http://research.cens.ucla.edu/portal/page?_pageid=54,65678,54_65679&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL

Mr. Boune,

This blog world is made for people to exchange ideas, debate, talk….etc. but u keep pissing everyone off with your comments.

You know that we are all Arabs/Muslims here and you keep attacking us, and say good things about Jewish who is killing our people in Palestine and Lebanon.

This is not a way of discussion; civilized people should be more considerate when they want to pass an idea to others. So, if you are here to talk and discuss, then you are most welcome but please u should consider the tone and the way of your comments.

Jumana,

I grew up in Bangalore, a peaceful city in southern India. Bangalore was called the pensioners paradise. Low in crime, mostly middle class people trying to make a living.

These terrorists travelled 800 miles to attack scientists at a conference

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/dec/28bang.htm

You tell me, why do you, in your right mind, think that I am not enraged by this?

Keep in mind, that India is growing economic, military and political power with a 3.56 trillion dollar GDP.

And many, many indians are getting weary of Islamic Jihad.

Jason,

I will cut this short, you are asking for the following:

1. Forget about religion.
2. Admit that Israel owns the land
3. Admit that Israel and USA are victims
4. And the Muslims are terrorist

Each and every one of these points deserves a war. I think that you have no hope here.

You know when I read your comments I feel that we (Muslims) have so sooooo much to do. You give me the motive to do more for Islam, and somehow I must thank you for this.

I wish to address the following:

“you are asking for the following:

1. Forget about religion.
2. Admit that Israel owns the land
3. Admit that Israel and USA are victims
4. And the Muslims are terrorist

Each and every one of these points deserves a war.”

#3 – Israel and USA are nations. Sometimes they are victims. Sometimes they are aggressors. This is true of Lebanon, too. Hezb’Allah is one of your guys, right?

#4 – Mohammed said to use terror in warfare. I didn’t make him say that. He said that because he believed it. Muslims, by definition, follow Mohammed’s noble example. Connect the dots.

#1 – You can remember your religion. Follow it at your will. I, for myself, reject any obligation to it. In that regard, Islam, Hindu, Shinto, Wiccan are all the same to me. You want to be muslim? Sure, whatever.

These were not important. Only #2 really counts.

Muslims have a choice. Either accept that Israel exists and owns the land or have perpetual war. Even you said just that. “Each and every one of these points deserves a war.”

OK. I’m listening. I accept that you actually have your point of view. To understand your ideas, I’ve been reading the fatwas and advice on Islam-online.net and from Mufti Ebrahim Desai at islam.tc/ask-imam for years. I will not try to talk you out of it. If muslims think that war is the thing to do, then I’ll agree with them. War it is.

Now for the exchange of ideas part. I’m seriously asking because I want to read what you think:

When muslims choose war, why should anyone be sad when war happens to them? Just because they aren’t very good at it?

This thread will go only to confusion if I address all of your points. I have solid reasons to believe what I believe.

I obviously didn’t stress strongly enough precisely what I meant to ask.

I asked about *muslims*, not Lebanese.

I do feel sad about the Lebanese. Hezb’Allah has commandeered the south of your country and picked a fight. Lebanese are just caught in the middle. Lebanon is caught between loyalty to its people in Hezb’Allah and the welfare of the rest for the nation.

Personally, I don’t think that is such a tough call. Hezb’Allah has declared that it has no feelings of loyalty or compassion for the welfare of their fellow Lebanese. They are ready to sacrifice all your homes and lives to hold on to two ( 2 ) Israeli soldiers.

Well, It’s your country’s decision. Good luck with it.

I don’t understand why you would say to Jason Bourne that the issue of Israel owning its territory “deserves a war” and then to me that “Israel is killing our people because they are fighting for their own land.”

Can you resolve or clarify this?

When you want to debate about something, you should cover every single axis. Obviously, your idea about Prophet Mohammad (peace upon him) contributes in the conclusion that you have made which is:” When Muslims choose war, why should anyone be sad when war happens to them?”
This is a very general accusation. Anyway, I have been doing a little research about how western people think of our Prophet and Islam:
1. Michael J. Wilson wrote this:
To begin with, I must say I wish I had read Martin Ling’s book on the life of Mohammad, for a more in depth understanding of the Prophet (m.p.b.h.). But then, I wouldn’t be using more of my own words and would likely just be quoting Ling. I have tried to read as much of the Koran as possible. My very first impression of the Holy Koran was that it’s author was a superb poet. It is easier to read the shorter suras, than the old testament-like other chapters. Mohammad was like a channeled, kind of like Edgar Cayce more than say poets like Dante or Milton, who were also absorbed in the study of God. Ezra Pound in a treatise on poetics in his book “The ABC of Reading” said that Dante could pack more meaning in a few lines of a canto than some poets in many verses. This is a quality Mohammad had. It is nothing other than wisdom. As Alexander Pope said “Neither does nature say one thing and wisdom another.” It has often been said that the Holy Koran is a book that should be read only as nature is read. The work of the Prophet Mohammad was to make more intelligible the word of God, in as natural a fashion as possible, for the worship of God.
The theme of this question ought to be directed at why Islam symbolically represents the “divine unity”. Mohammad was not a wrathful prophet. His vision was to restore the divine law and create unity among people.
One of my favorite sayings about the prophet by Pir Vilayat is that “the sword of Mohammad was the charm of his personality”. He was a very compassionate man, full of forgiveness in his judgments of others. Still, his wisdom came more from his harmony with Allah, than with those around him.

2. Bernard Shaw said “ if Muhammad were alive today he would succeed in
solving all those problems which threaten to destroy human
civilization in our times”

3. Thomas Carlysle was simply amazed as to how one man, single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades.

And I can go on….
Some of these people are not Muslims (Also Mahatma Gandhi). And you claim that Muslims choose war. Every where Muslims get killed in Chechnya, Palestine, Lebanon..etc. Do you know why, because non Muslims have studied history very well. They know what we are capable of when we get back to our religion. And the bad news is that our rulers have betrayed their religion and people.

Wilson, Shaw, and Carlysle are all influential writers and analysts. They are all, obviously, western. None of the quotes you have here even have these men citing Muhammed. No Sura no Sunnah, and no Hadith is mentioned. When I want to know about Mohammed, I try to read Islamic sources, to the best of my ability. In the end I will make up my own mind.

First, I have made no “accusation”. I have asked a hard question and in a hard way.

I asked you because of the your post titled : “On why we suck”. It showed that you could think.

Regarding Mohammed, since it is an issue for you, I’ll address it briefly. I think it’s better to let the Koran and Mohammed speak for themselves.

[http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html]
Sura 8,60 : And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah’s way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.

Sura 3,25-27 : And Allah turned back the unbelievers in their rage; they did not obtain any advantage, and Allah sufficed the believers in fighting; and Allah is Strong, Mighty.
And He drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part.
And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.

Mohammed, of course, liked this idea and further did what he could to help it along:

[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/smtintro.html]
Sahih Muslim, Book 4, Number 1062 :
Abu Huraira reported that

the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me: the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me.

[http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/sbtintro.html]
Sahih Bukari Book 52 number 220 :
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand.” Abu Huraira added: Allah’s Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

Now if there is some other translation of these things that you’d rather I read, please tell me where to find them. Given a choice between believing what Shaw might think, or even you, I prefer to believe Mohammed.

If you have a problem with Mohammed said, take it up with him.

I hope these side trips into the basis of my thinking is finished. Terrorism isn’t the issue I raised.

Further, this isn’t about you understanding me. It’s about me understanding you, remember?

I eagerly await the restatment you mentioned in your Aug 7, 5:38am post.

First of all you don’t READ names right, My name is Jumana and the owner of this post is Roba.

And because you don’t want to debate. I really don’t want to waste any more time with you. I don’t like to enter a long disscuions when there is no piont of that. You have decided that you are not going to change you mind. Its your decision but find someone else to talk to then.

And about the known writers and analysis that I talked about, I think we all know how they are. I didn’t bring any of Quran or Sunna here for a good reason actually. Because my goal here is to show you that wester people think that Muslims and their prophet are the leaders of peace not like what you have metiones of “choosing wars”. Obviously, you didn’t get my point.

And for the Quran that you have mentioned, These “Ayat” can’t be explained by a person like you. These Ayat have a Curtain expplenation according to certain circumestances. An ordinary person “like you” is not allowed to explain them. so don’t you ever think that you have given the proof. (and by the way, thats a reason for why I didn’t bring Quran or Sunnah here, explaining these Ayat take pages and we are not in the right place for this)

“This blog world is made for people to exchange ideas, debate, talk….etc. …” – Jumana

“Jason, I suggest that YOU start to accept other point of views. Try to understand our ideas, our religion (our real religion). Be flexible, don’t talk to us just to convince us. I think it’s a good idea to start LISTENNING to us.” – Jumana

“Who set that rule? YOU?” – Jumana

I didn’t set any rule. Were it a rule, I would try to enforce it on everyone. I am clearly stateing my own standard for my own conduct. I am always in a position to do that. You can “debate” if you like. I was complying with your prior stated preferences.

I am, or was, trying to understand you. You had said some things that I wanted to understand better and I was asking about them.

You, however, are intent on having an argument with me about what I think.

Changing the subject is a neat dodge, but I *have* children.

Saying that plain spoken words can’t be understood without further special knowledge and then saying that such special knowledge can’t be explained is another neat dodge, but I don’t join cults to discover their “special knowledge”. Are you Druze?

Citing that other famous people have all agreed that you are right, so that I don’t need an explanation is yet another neat dodge, but I don’t buy stuff just because I saw it on TV.

So, what you want is to bully me into agreeing with you. That’s definitely impolite.

“First of all you don’t READ names right, My name is Jumana and the owner of this post is Roba.” – Jumana

Yoy’re right on both counts. I didn’t read the name and you definitely aren’t Roba.